Katherine Froggatt (00:01)

Welcome back to Breastwise Unafraid. If this is your first time here, please hit subscribe so you don't miss what's coming up whenever the episode drops. Today I'm joined by someone whose work sits right at the intersection of body and recovery, and I think this conversation that we're gonna have today is going to change the way you think about every wave of fear, every flinch, every moment your body feels there's like she's one step ahead of you.

Katherine Froggatt (00:51)

Now, by the end of this episode, I would love for you to understand what kinesiology actually is in plain language, not just a jargon. I would love for you to stop thinking of nervous system regulation as a nice extra that you're gonna get to one day. And start seeing it as if it is actual work of recovery. And I would love for you to walk away with the permission to actually trust your body.

Katherine Froggatt (01:19)

And that your body is telling you something, instead of overriding it or being too busy or missing the information, because everyone around you thinks that you should be fine by now.

Katherine Froggatt (01:31)

Right, I would like to just introduce my beautiful guest today. She is a well-being coach, a kinesiologist, and a public speaker who supports women through every season of her life. Alex Bowles is a founder of Shine Naturally and director of the Academy of Healing Arts, bringing kinesiology to New Zealand. And she draws on a range of kinesiology modalities, somatic work,

Katherine Froggatt (02:00)

and quantum medicine to help women move beyond overwhelm and come home to themselves. Welcome, Alex. I am so glad you're here.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (02:10)

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, Katherine.

Katherine Froggatt (02:14)

Yeah, you are not just my local my friend, someone that I rely on. You're also my walking buddy and someone that loves coffee as much as I do. So I

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (02:22)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (02:25)

am so thrilled to have you here today. So I would just like to ask by checking in with you Alex, how are you feeling today?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (02:34)

I am feeling great. Thank you. I've just said to you, I've already had a wonderful client this morning and sort of navigating, supporting or being asked to speak somewhere else later tonight. And I actually set some boundaries today for myself and said no, which I often struggle with.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (02:56)

So yeah, but I'm great. I'm really excited about this. A little bit nervous, but really super excited and just lovely hanging out with you just in a different realm. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (03:05)

Exactly. I love the idea that

Katherine Froggatt (03:07)

it's a nervous excitement that we're feeling.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (03:09)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (03:09)

So let's get into it. Alex, now when we first met, I was so intrigued about kinesiology. So I would love to just maybe put things in plain language. If someone has never had a session

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (03:23)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (03:24)

and don't know what kinesiology is and what it involves, how do you explain what actually happens in the room with you?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (03:33)

That's such a good question and it's often something really hard to do in one sentence. So bear with me. For me kinesiology is a wonderful modality to tap into your unconscious but not in regards to talk therapy. It's literally what's held in your body.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (03:51)

So if you think about kinesiology, everything we experience is our body remembers. So every food we ate, every memory, every thought, sometimes even stuff we're not even consciously aware that just was maybe a side comment of a family member at a wedding, but our unconscious perceived that and has become somewhere.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (04:12)

as an energy held in our tissue, our fascia, our organ, and obviously our, you know, body mind, wherever it's held. And we're not even aware of this. So with kinesiology, I love is I use very gentle muscle testing. So if I would use just the arm here, I could put some gentle pressure on. And normally if there's no stress, it holds and the body goes, I'm not bothered, I'm not stressed. If there is a stress, it would unlock.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (04:40)

And I follow those cues. So what I do is I follow your body's cues where the stress is held in the system, no matter if it's the nervous system, that chest system, a belief system, a specific organ, a tissue, your body will show me where the stress is held, but it also shows me how it wants to be balanced. So if I have three people with anxiety presenting in my clinic,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (05:07)

three balances will be very different. One person might look into nervous system support and nutritional support because the body guides me there. The next person might experience acupressure points. And instead of me putting needles in, I just put some pressure on and we do a physical adjustment and then look at emotions. And the next person might go in really deep through emotions held in organs and tissues and then finish with some gentle energy balance.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (05:36)

So it's very different, it's very gentle, it goes deep fast, but it only goes where the body allows me to go on the day. And it's very gentle. So in short, kinesiology shows me where the stress is held and how your body would like to release it. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (05:53)

I am so fascinated by that because it's

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (05:55)

You are.

Katherine Froggatt (05:55)

almost like you are a body whisperer, like you know the language of the body, but just by tuning in, how is it that we become so I would say the word coming to me is powerless. It seems like we can be so powerless we forget that we've got those ability to read the body's messages. So isn't it fantastic that the first time when you and I we introduce

Katherine Froggatt (06:19)

Well, I introduced Paul to you. And he told he he said, Tell me about kinesiology 'cause you know, we've done the NET technique where we've had the hand held out and the therapist was just trying to muscle test in in a way that is either the up or a down and I guess, you know, he you told him to think of a food that brings joy and think of a food that doesn't bring joy. And I think that moment just transformed how he was

Katherine Froggatt (06:47)

Just blown away that the fact that you could actually give that bridge, that connection to his understanding of what he's thinking and what the body is saying. Do you remember that day?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (06:59)

Yeah, it was at the market, wasn't it? We were literally in

Katherine Froggatt (07:01)

Yes it was

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (07:02)

a crowd, where we put down and we said, okay, let's do it. Do want to feel it in your body? And I think for people, feeling it in their body is such a beautiful way. know, if we think about embodiment and feeling things in your body, and I think most people, they had this little inkling, they had this little whisper, they had this gut feeling, but we're often too busy to...

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (07:26)

You know, I think our Western world doesn't always allow us to actually stop and slow down and listen. What do I actually need today? What do I need today? And can I manage to implement that in my busy day? Because that's two things. Sometimes we know what we need and we can't don't even know how to get started implementing that. But it's that reconnecting and that listening within and it's just so beautiful and I love it so much. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (07:50)

Yeah. And I think there is some power in in helping us women learn to reconnect with our body in a way that facilitates our healing. And of course there are times when our nervous system is so dysregulated that those messages does not come through. And it is not a failure on our part. I guess it is just re recognizing that perhaps at this point if I were to s truly just sit down and pause.

Katherine Froggatt (08:18)

what is coming to me and what is coming to me without the ego jumping in and and correcting

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (08:23)

you

Katherine Froggatt (08:24)

it. So tell me a little bit about that. How how do you teach or work with women in that space from whatever they bring to the session, especially if, you know, women that I work with, and myself included, with the cancer diagnosis, how do we navigate those early days?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (08:40)

Okay, so normally when you come to a session, the first session is normally a minimum of one and a half hours, sometimes even two. And we do like, I want to see the big picture. want to see, you know, have you had three concussions in a row when you were 14? I want to see everything that happened to you because as I said before, the memory is held in your system if you haven't released it. And that also shows me what's going on overall. I then look also into doshas with Ayurvedic medicine and chakras.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (09:10)

in the energy centers and was held behind. you know, the eyes are often a secondary chakra for the heart space, you know, if someone has eye conditions. So for me, you telling me about having a concussion, having a car accident, having a big traumatic experience for love when passing in this car accident, all of this influences how the energy is held in our body. So I really want to hear all about you.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (09:35)

There is no judgment. is only unconditional love and there's just holding space to be fully present with you. lately I had more beautiful people found me who were on their cancer journey and quite often they find me actually at the end of the cancer treatment when officially the treatment is over and they're being, you know, go off in the world, you're healed and let's go. And that's often when

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (09:59)

when they find me because they go, wow, I actually have finally time to actually process what happened to me emotionally, energetically and physically, but I actually don't even know where to start. So we really allow so much time in the beginning. I have a short question here I sent out and then we go in. And what I love about kinesiology is that self responsibility. So if you don't want to share, you don't have to. And my clients know this. I'm there to hold a safe container.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (10:28)

and can share as much as little. Obviously, if you share with me, sometimes, you know, I can connect the dot energetically or physically or what's going on. And I also want to clarify for me, when people come and see me, I'm not there to fix them. For me, you as a person, are whole and you're where you are supposed to be on your journey. And I'm alongside with you and I help you to reconnect to what has not been said, what needs to be expressed, what has to be released in a gentle way.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (10:57)

So it's not me start sitting down. We have a discussion, explore it all. Also set goals. You what is important for you right now, where you would like to go next? What would be the biggest outcome? And sometimes people come with a, they think it's a specific thing like, you know, getting back to work or reconnecting with a partner or loved one. And then when you're in session, it actually takes us on a different way. There might be still the bigger picture of returning to work.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (11:25)

or returning to life as it has been, but sometimes we have to take this apart and make smaller goals. And then you normally end up lying down on my table, like a massage table. I make you nice and comfortable with pillows and blankets and whatever you need. And I do a couple of pre-checks just to see how your body muscle tests, because some people literally like flops, it's a very big indicator.

Katherine Froggatt (11:48)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (11:48)

Some people just have the smallest, you know, it's like,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (11:51)

that much the move and that's how their body responds to a stress or a question.

Katherine Froggatt (11:56)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (11:57)

And then we do a couple of pre-checks where I normally figure out where's the stress held and we go from there. And then potentially whatever is available in the room and whatever I've learned, all the different modalities, your body knows, your body can feel, and that's what your body will ask for. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (12:16)

My favorite part is lying down, as you know.

Katherine Froggatt (12:18)

And I think it's just so fascinating that sometimes when we are circulating around a thought of, say, for example, fear and anxiety. And

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (12:27)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (12:27)

it's really interesting that you say the women are finding you when they finish their treatments,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (12:33)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (12:33)

and that is what I call the survivorship gap.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (12:36)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (12:37)

Within that gap there is generally a lot more fear and anxiety because everything slowed down.

Katherine Froggatt (12:43)

They don't have any more hospital appointments, they don't see the oncology team as often, and that is the void. The void of not knowing what the body is doing. And in and amongst a lot of the post-treatment symptoms that they're suffering from, it would be a struggle to try and really align what the body is trying to feed back to her.

Katherine Froggatt (13:06)

Over and above all of the other negative emotions that's currently, you know, sort of overwhelming and engulfing the mind and the body. So I love that you are the bridge. You are the person that can really identify and help them, you know, just feed into the messaging of what the body wants and really gently, because I have person personally sort of experienced so many sessions with you where this is definitely you know, a very gentle, very I would say

Katherine Froggatt (13:33)

relaxing process of

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (13:35)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (13:36)

really allowing the body to just surface up the messaging that the body is ready to receive as well. It's nothing that's going to be more intrusive. And I really feel that there's some level of comfort that I feel that when I'm with someone that I can trust that is gently working within what my body is ready to receive. I think that's really powerful. So thank you for sharing that Alex. can I just ask as well, like

Katherine Froggatt (14:01)

How come it you know, like just just from my own journey as well, like when I was leaving, sort of the bulk of the main treatments, I was trying to do it all. I was trying

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (14:10)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (14:10)

to do everything. Tell me everything, you know, just just get me all of the different therapies out there and I'll try it because all I want is to survive. All I

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (14:20)

We.

Katherine Froggatt (14:21)

want is never to go through this again. And I think

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (14:23)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (14:24)

in there is a little too much too soon, or trying to do it all and trying to take on everything, and that's

Katherine Froggatt (14:31)

Sort of putting even more pressure on our nervous system. So why is the nervous system? you know, the the regulation and the potential or the priority of of healing our nervous system so important. It's not a luxury anymore. It's what we need to be investing in on a daily basis, right? I mean, throw in the curveball of a diagnosis. This is even more

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (14:53)

Thank

Katherine Froggatt (14:54)

of a high priority. So tell me your perspective. Why is this?

Katherine Froggatt (14:58)

A must have. Why is this non negotiable?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (15:02)

I tell you what, if you don't mind. you know, I love working with women and I love working with children and maybe it might help us to

Katherine Froggatt (15:08)

Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (15:08)

go back to when we had children and we learn. And we all

Katherine Froggatt (15:11)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (15:12)

remember the moment where we had a favorite teacher who was kind, we felt comfortable. And no matter what challenge she presented us, we generally could do it because our nervous system was calm. was no threat.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (15:27)

We might have felt like, I don't know how to do this. We might have gone into our dominant brain and gone, I'm slightly nervous here. don't know. But because we had someone co-regulating or being calm in front of us, we were able to do the challenge. And then we had maybe, and most people remember also, at least one teacher that was yelling, grumpy. You were always in trouble just for breathing or moving. And if you think about it, if your nervous system is already in a state of fear, fight, flight.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (15:56)

whatever your response is when activated. There is no healing happening. There is no, because right now the body goes, I need to surf right now, right now here. This is where I have to survive. But there is no space to actually calm down, to go in our rest and digest and to actually heal and move on.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (16:19)

So even in everyday life and best example, I teach nervous system regulation and there is days that go, my God, I'm so dysregulated right now with my children. And again, bringing in the love and compassion because, you know, giving

Katherine Froggatt (16:32)

Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (16:32)

myself a hard time on top of being dysregulated does not help at all. And I'm getting there, getting much better. But, you know, so.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (16:40)

taking a moment. And for me, it's funny enough for me, breathing doesn't work. And I'm not saying breathing doesn't work. It's just, think I'm one of those people where when people say, just take a deep breath, doesn't work for me. For me, it's actually

Katherine Froggatt (16:50)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (16:52)

having a drink of water or completely changing the scene. you know, if I go, we need to go in the car, dah, dah, I'm in auto mode and stress because there's traffic and they're running late, is actually doing the complete opposite. And what I've learned is that you take shoes off and go out in the garden and stand on the grass one minute.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (17:10)

or 30 seconds standing on the grass and going. So I completely changed the situation and come back. Okay, this is stressing me. But in the end, if we are five minutes late, you know, they're not having big impact on the rest of my day. But in that moment, my nervous system goes for whatever reason it's being triggered and believes from earlier on is so beyond stress. So taking a step back and doing something completely different. So for me, when I think of healing,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (17:35)

if we are in fight flight and still a stress response. And I can only imagine I have had not a cancer diagnosis, I had a cancer scare. I always have supported my best friend and family members on the cancer journey.

Katherine Froggatt (17:52)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (17:53)

And you know, so I cannot even imagine because I haven't been there, what you must have gone through with this diagnosis and the fear of it coming back. I can only...

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (18:04)

I only know the fear of what if there is because you know, I had a cancer scare, but not that I've had it and what if it comes back. So for me, I just have so much love and compassion because just knowing someone carries that and feeling that and I often feel it with people and I'm getting much better to say I can hold space and I don't have to feel it in my body, but I really feel deeply when I'm with my clients. I think the thing is to come back to safety.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (18:35)

to now. And you know, no matter if you're the little child in school and you have to come back to safety because we can't learn when we're dysregulated, or if you're the mom stressed and trying to co-regulate the children, or if you are going, what if it comes back and it hangs over you all the time, to come

Katherine Froggatt (18:53)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (18:54)

in the now and to regulate the nervous system. And a beautiful example is often in clinic when I work on people in session.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (19:03)

Sometimes they fall asleep and sometimes we clear an emotion and we have the biggest tummy gurgles. And sometimes, have you had it? I think you did. There's really big tummy gurgles and quite commonly people say,

Katherine Froggatt (19:12)

Of course, several times on your beautiful mattress.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (19:17)

I'm so sorry, I must be hungry or did I fall asleep? And I normally go, this is amazing. You were actually completely in your parasympathetic nervous system, rest and digest. Your body was gurgling and digesting and allowing.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (19:32)

not only maybe the food you had digested two hours ago, what's existing, what you've eaten two hours ago, but you're actually digesting that belief, that memory, that emotion. And you're actually in a safe place because this is where the healing and the reconnection happens. That's where the magic happens, really reconnecting because your body always strives to heal itself. Then it feels safe to do so. And I think this is why nervous system regulation is so important.

Katherine Froggatt (20:00)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (20:01)

And I think it's for for all the years that I've worked on and I've never been taught, even in school, nervous system regulation. And you're

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (20:10)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (20:10)

right, we all have that teacher, the minute they walk into class, we just get into the fear response, don't we? Like, am I gonna get my ear pulled today because I didn't do my homework, you know?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (20:20)

Hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (20:21)

And that fear response sits in our body and we remember school as being

Katherine Froggatt (20:26)

Traumatic, tormenting, unpleasant because of that one teacher. So it's it's a fear response and it's the similar triggers that makes us feel the same way. And it may not be a teacher, but it could be something like, for example, in my case, I have a mammogram coming up every year.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (20:45)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (20:46)

And so that response would be, What if? What

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (20:48)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (20:49)

if things happen? What if this might change? What if

Katherine Froggatt (20:53)

You know, it doesn't come back as normal as before. so

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (20:57)

and

Katherine Froggatt (20:58)

there are always those similar triggers that would make us feel the same way and brings us back into ten years ago in my case, of that day. So

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (21:09)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (21:09)

I guess there is I I believe what I'm hearing from you, Alex, is that the body holds that as

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (21:17)

Thank

Katherine Froggatt (21:18)

gospel for us as truth because yes, it has happened.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (21:21)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (21:21)

But how

Katherine Froggatt (21:22)

do we then navigate our body to teach our body that this may not happen again if we are able to? Or should we allow ourselves a different approach? Or could we teach our body a different way to start trusting our body again, to really lean into the wisdom of our body? And I think I love what you're saying that we can regulate our nervous system into the rest and digest, and we all have the ability to, don't we?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (21:48)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (21:48)

We

Katherine Froggatt (21:49)

all have the c capacity to. And I guess what I'm really sort of very curious about is how do you teach your clients to to learn to do that through the interactions with you? Is there some way for us to sort of unlearn the bad habits and then bring on some new habits to learn how to regulate our nervous system?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (22:12)

Yeah, so I have multiple little techniques I use in session and sometimes

Katherine Froggatt (22:18)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (22:19)

it's funny enough tapping just slightly different in how you've been taught and use it. One of the biggest things I use is actually emotional stress release and that's something I teach my clients very early on because it's a beautiful way or beautiful technique

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (22:36)

stress you feel right now, but also stress of things coming up as well as of things that happened in the past. So if you don't mind, do want me to take you through that? Would that feel aligned for you right now? Yes. Shall we? Okay.

Katherine Froggatt (22:50)

I'll be pleased. Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (22:53)

So do you mind if we use your example of a mammogram coming up? Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (22:58)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (22:59)

Yeah, of course.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:00)

Because obviously this is perfect example of something that happened in your past that impacts you how you feel right now and putting stress on your system because it's coming up. So you literally have the stress of the past in the now and the future all at once. And if you

Katherine Froggatt (23:14)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:14)

go into quantum physics, there is no time. We just feel that fear or that uncertainty in the now. Yeah. So with this in

Katherine Froggatt (23:22)

Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:23)

mind.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:24)

And as you know, I won't leave you long there, but if you're happy to close your eyes or have just gentle gaze open, that sort of comes

Katherine Froggatt (23:30)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:31)

in your body. And I invite you to notice if you think about the upcoming mammogram, where do you feel it in your body? Is there an emotion, a sensation? What's your breathing doing? Is there an area in your body where you feel this?

Katherine Froggatt (23:46)

I feel it in my tummy. Yeah. There's some tension in my tummy.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:51)

Tension? Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (23:53)

And do feel like your breath is even or you feel like you're holding your breath? What's happening there?

Katherine Froggatt (24:00)

I probably just took an a deep inhalation

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:00)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (24:03)

to try and calm my nervous system because for me breath work works. Mm yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:07)

Yes, I know it does, which is so cool.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:10)

So you have a sensation in your tummy, in your stomach area. And what number would you give it? If you say if it's a tension, 10 is super tight, zero, not at all. Number six, yeah. And

Katherine Froggatt (24:23)

Five or six out of ten. Mm-hmm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:26)

is there a main emotion you can identify right now? Sometimes we can't, but sometimes there might be one or two emotions you go, yeah, it's right there.

Katherine Froggatt (24:35)

I'd say there's some level of nervousness.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:38)

And again, are you able to give it a number out of 10? 10 super nervous, zero not at all.

Katherine Froggatt (24:46)

About five.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (24:47)

Okay, so we're halfway there. This is great. So when you allow yourself to feel this and then I you know this modality or this technique already so when you're ready bring either one hand or two hands just feel into it what feels most aligned the main thing is to hold very very lightly so your frontal eminences are here and Take a moment to allow yourself to feel the feeling in your stomach the tightness to feel the nervousness

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (25:16)

Hold with your fingers or hand very, very lightly and just allow your body for a moment to feel this. So we're not putting this feeling or this sensation away. We're going nobody. You allow it to feel this in order to move through this.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (25:38)

And if you can remember your breath. Soften your shoulders.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (25:46)

and bring your awareness back to the nervousness and the tension and just notice both of them were a five or a six are those numbers slowly coming down?

Katherine Froggatt (26:00)

Yeah, the number that comes to me is a three.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:02)

Perfect. And we can hold this if you wanted to. I mean, it's been only about two minutes. And, you know, if you have another five or eight minutes, you can bring it to a zero. Now, what we are

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:15)

Allowing our body to do here is and that by the way, I had to hold this point I had to hold one of my clients for it for 22 minutes once to release and diffuse the stress The more

Katherine Froggatt (26:24)

Wow. Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:28)

the faster our body allows to release like if you do this a few times and you begin in five or eight minutes The more you do this. It's a bit like your body goes. we're doing this releasing thing again. It becomes faster, but quite often

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:43)

people come down to a zero or close to a zero. And

Katherine Froggatt (26:46)

Mm-hmm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:47)

the idea is this, to not be stuck in the fear or the uncertainty and also not to brush it away, you know, because this is exactly

Katherine Froggatt (26:57)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (26:57)

it. If we brush any emotion away, it's still there. And this is where the body goes, okay, if you don't look at it right now, I'm going to hold it somewhere until you're ready to look at it. So with this emotional stress release technique,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (27:12)

What we're doing is we say, OK, I'm allowing five or 10 minutes to actually be with this emotion. And because I'm allowing this emotion and then help my body to release it. We are actually releasing it and moving on. Now, you might like to do this every day, you know, for the week leading up to the to the mammogram, whenever the sensation kicks in of nervousness or uncertainty or fear or an old memory even.

Katherine Froggatt (27:39)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (27:40)

just that old memory of having the diagnosis and sitting with it like this, it doesn't change what happened. It doesn't change what will happen. It helps your body not to hold that stress anymore. So we're releasing it. And the more we do it, the faster it becomes to release. It's amazing. So think Dr. Jensen, she's a chiropractor, a kinesiologist, she research.

Katherine Froggatt (28:07)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (28:08)

She did a research with the Oxford University on accuracy of muscle testing, but also on, I'm not sure it was her, especially on the ESR. And they found even people with heart problems, their heart rate lowered. Their blood oxygen came up and according

Katherine Froggatt (28:23)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (28:24)

to your forehead, your frontal eminences, you actually bring blood flow into your frontal cortex. So if you think about, if you're in fight flight, you are, you know, and you are in the brain that

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (28:36)

is right there, survival. But we normally

Katherine Froggatt (28:38)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (28:39)

don't do, you know, let me think about it logically about the problem. That's not happening because if you fight-flight, you are ready to fight or flight.

Katherine Froggatt (28:48)

Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (28:48)

By doing this, you're bringing blood flow to the frontal cortex, oxygen, nutrition. It also is linked to your stomach, meridian. So it helps the nervousness in the stomach.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (29:00)

And it's just wonderful to just allow your body to process something and you don't even have to talk about it if you don't want to. Because

Katherine Froggatt (29:07)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (29:08)

even in session, I might sometimes say, this is the emotion and you might say one sentence about it, but potentially you clear it out with different techniques like eye rotations, tapping, acupressure points, doing this, doing brain integration.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (29:24)

but you don't have to talk about it because all I want to know is to identify what is the main emotion behind the stress. And sometimes we have even a stuck emotion or a secondary emotion there, but through the muscle testing, we find them and we release them very gently. And you don't have to go over and over talking about it if you don't want to. And some people want to share and that's absolutely welcome. But this is where the self responsibility comes in. You do what feels most aligned for you in the sessions with me.

Katherine Froggatt (29:55)

Yeah, yeah. I remember

Katherine Froggatt (29:59)

the bottled up pressurized emotions so much, especially when the speed of the treatments, as soon as we're diagnosed, all the way to, you know, whether it's surgery first, chemotherapy, radiation, or is it chemotherapy, then surgery, then radiation, whatever it is, it they have locked us into a s a s schedule that does

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (30:21)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (30:22)

not give us time to pause.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (30:24)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (30:24)

And

Katherine Froggatt (30:24)

this just two minutes together of just putting our hands on the forehead and not having

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (30:29)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (30:29)

any words, but just sensing into our body is such a gift. It's such a gift

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (30:34)

Absolutely.

Katherine Froggatt (30:34)

for us to slow down and just be able to do nothing but just tuning in. But sometimes we think, as I shared earlier, I just wanted to do everything to try

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (30:46)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (30:47)

and, you know,

Katherine Froggatt (30:49)

increase my chances of survival to lower my risk because suddenly from no appointment from all the appointments to no appointments and that fear response sits in the body and it feels so much like a threat because we haven't really processed it. So thank you for sharing that, Alex, because I think that what is coming to me as truth is if we are able to give ourselves the permission just for five minutes.

Katherine Froggatt (31:16)

Wouldn't that be amazing of doing nothing into giving us back what we actually are needing, which is stability, which is safety, which is being present, which is being able to connect my mind with what my mind is racing about, towards the physical sensations

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (31:33)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (31:34)

of the body and connecting the dots so then there is no longer the tension. It is actually coming into flow.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (31:41)

Yes, absolutely. And as I said before, you know, if we keep rushing past it, it's still there. We haven't dealt with it just because we try to have a positive mindset in seeing the gifts and the journey. If you haven't allowed to feel the icky bits, the not so nice bits, the fear, the comment of a doctor, that being pushed into something in hindsight, you might have not chosen. But when you're in it, you can only make decisions from what you got in the now.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (32:09)

and then coming out of that and going, maybe I should have done this or couldn't have done, you know, like lots of people I work with, they go in hindsight, I would have maybe done this. And they have so much grief and guilt around, you know, on top of the fear on what they could have done better or differently. And again, holding space for that and allowing that and saying, you know, right now, back then your body did what it needed to do. You could only make a decision from what all the information you had.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (32:38)

and you did the best. yes, hindsight is sometimes a great thing, but it doesn't change the outcome. it's, you know, don't give yourself more guilt or shame or anything on top of that, because you are doing it now. You're doing what's right now and what has shifted and it doesn't make it wrong what happened. And even if it doesn't feel aligned, what has happened to come at peace with it, because we can't go back and change it as much as we sometimes would love to.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (33:07)

it's coming to a place of speed, of peace, calm. And I also find, you know, the empowerment knowing with that whole experience knowing, okay, this is who I am. This is also my resilience. This is my, my fight, my, you know, however you want to phrase it, my journey and how far you've come, because it's another thing I often see clients here. They had big trauma and.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (33:37)

so much happening to the body, mind and soul and then they're giving themselves a hard time for not have done better. And you

Katherine Froggatt (33:45)

Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (33:45)

know, it's like that's just another layer and to love yourself more and have the compassion for self of where you have been and where you are now. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (33:56)

Hmm. I think what's coming

Katherine Froggatt (33:58)

to me, Alex, after you've just shared that story, is the acknowledgement and that yes, it has happened. And

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:06)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (34:06)

the acceptance is generally quite difficult because

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:10)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (34:11)

we wrestle with the why me.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:13)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (34:15)

How did this happen? How can I trust my body to heal again? And I think

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:19)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (34:20)

there is some work that I couldn't unravel on my own that I needed experts who can actually facilitate that opportunity for me to be in a safe container. And I mean that safety is a big thing for me to actually learn to trust someone who can really hold me in the safe space to allow me to allow those emotions to.

Katherine Froggatt (34:43)

Come up to the surface to be able to be processed in a way that I'm still supported and

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:49)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (34:49)

know that this is nothing to be afraid of because our emotions are necessary for us as a human being

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (34:56)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (34:57)

to feel, to sense, to identify, and then through

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (35:01)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (35:02)

the identification and what you're saying is the acknowledgement of that gives us that level of power, isn't it?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (35:09)

Yes, because that comes from a place within you to feel empowered, not something that's being done to you. Something, if you feel it and allow it, it's something you can actively work through it. It's not something that has been done to you. Yeah. And I think that's where the empowerment comes in or even making decisions or speaking up or

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (35:33)

you know, going forward, going, setting clear boundaries, being more compassionate to yourself. You know, all of this is so empowering. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (35:42)

Yeah. What is

Katherine Froggatt (35:44)

the one thing that you see when you work with women? What is the shift when you can see that she finally is able to trust and connect with her body? How does it feel for you when you see that happening?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (35:58)

I get really excited and as you know, I wear my emotions on my face in my body language. there would be for me, it's just, it just brings me so much joy observing that. And it's often the whole body language of my client change, you know, the body language, face, I sometimes feel the whole energy, the whole energy shift. sometimes like a new blueprint of yourself already. And, you know, all of a sudden in front of me,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (36:26)

The biggest thing is the body language or hearing my clients talk about their experience and not going to the shaming guilt anymore, but giving empowered answers and owning it. And it's just so exciting. I have one client in America and she just so much stuff. And the other day I actually had to stop her and say, do you know how far you have come? saying this sentence right now.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (36:54)

and how you see, how you feel about this current situation, how you stand here right now, you know, your whole body language. And she stopped and she went, I didn't even notice Alex because she has completely embodied it. But we had to stop for her to take it in and go, wow. And I think that's another thing we need to celebrate ourselves more for what we have accomplished and what we have done.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (37:19)

because it's so easy to go, yeah, I've done this now, but really, really acknowledge the big shifts and the little shifts because lots of little shifts, you know, build up to the big shift and you might not see it because it's maybe just one thought, one move, but it all accumulates and to celebrate this more and it's something else I do often, like I reflect back what I observe and see. And also sometimes, you know, if I have been working with someone for longer from, hey, half a year ago,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (37:49)

this would have been really different and look at you now and how you handle the situation or how you feel in your body and stop again, stopping and noticing and then celebrating this is so important. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (38:04)

Yeah, yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (38:06)

So Alex, how I'm I'm sure you've s met so many different clients and there are some clients who are quite stoic, who probably might have been sent or recommended to see you by somebody else, who probably doesn't know about kinesiology

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (38:19)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (38:20)

or even believe in the energetic work of the body, mind and the soul. How

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (38:24)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (38:27)

do you speak to someone who struggles with this concept?

Katherine Froggatt (38:33)

of the energy

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (38:33)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (38:33)

work and the messaging from the body, like how how do we actually invite them to be curious, to accept this as an opportunity for connection?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (38:44)

To be honest, if I have a super skeptical, I allow lots of time to talk about what I do if they want to, and then feel it in the body. And often one of the fastest way for people to it in the body is if we might not go straight into emotions and throw my deep stuff, we might actually start with feeling more energized, feeling calmer, pain relief.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (39:08)

You know, that's a big one. work a lot of people with pain relief range of motions, working on the fascia and so on in the body. so the biggest thing is often I often say to people, just have an open mind. Feel free to ask any questions throughout the session. And and I often start with physical things and it might be the energy, sleep, stress.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (39:35)

And we always give it a number, as I did with you, how stressed do you feel, how tired, how energized? Notice the range of movement. Does it activate any tension or pain? And we might start more on the physical body because most people through bodywork and massage and physiotherapy are used to bodywork. So we often start that way. So someone who's really skeptical, we might start there for them to...

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (40:01)

feel the changes and then he bring in the emotions step by step. And I find it really interesting. I have people who have no idea what I'm doing and they go for it. And it's like, wow, that is like, this is, know,

Katherine Froggatt (40:13)

Wonderful.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (40:14)

I it. This is wonderful. And I do have people who are skeptical or they are beautiful. 16 year old boy with my crane. And I said, so let's look what's the hidden emotion and his whole body language was.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (40:27)

you know he went like crossed his arms crossed his legs looked at me she said emotions as soon as i said to him and actually you can see it's just behind there is actually um one of them one

Katherine Froggatt (40:39)

Body sh yeah, the chat.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (40:40)

of my child with emotions i said to him i'm gonna muscle test the main emotion and if you don't want to talk about it you don't have to just go be clearing it at the same time and as soon as i said to him that he doesn't have to talk about the emotions he and you know unfolded his arms and he came sort of

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (40:57)

towards me again with his body.

Katherine Froggatt (40:59)

Nice.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (41:00)

So that was interesting. I think, you know what, truly honor the trust clients have working with me because I know it's, when we go on this journey together, it's a big journey we are on and trusting them. And, you know, as you said before, you trusting me there fully is absolutely beautiful. And, but I go at the pace of my clients. So I will not rush, I will not push. allow.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (41:22)

Some people really want to talk it. Some people don't know what am I doing at any given moment. So I talk them through it

Katherine Froggatt (41:27)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (41:28)

and other people say, just do whatever you want to do and tell me afterwards. At least you need to. So, you know, it's all here. It's only sometimes when I get, so it makes me laugh. Our lovely husbands, when they get sent to me because it worked so well on the wife, send their husband, but sometimes the hard one.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (41:50)

And not hard, it's

Katherine Froggatt (41:50)

Yes.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (41:51)

just, say, you know, sometimes even acknowledge. So I understand you're open to this, but you were sort of. Sort of sent here today to work on something. And I think sometimes even acknowledging how they feel like a yeah. And I go, okay, any questions? And then I normally do, you know, the muscle test and the feeling it in your body. And once they go, no, I can feel the difference of when I'm stressed, the muscle unlocks. And when I'm not stressed, the muscle is.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (42:19)

locked or doesn't move, I can actually feel that. Wow. And once we get to those points in a couple of pre-checks, I do, they're actually there for me to see how your muscle tests, but also for my client to see how the muscle testing feels in their body. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (42:34)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (42:35)

And that's one way of building trust as well, because then

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (42:37)

Good.

Katherine Froggatt (42:37)

they can get the sense of and I and I cannot you know, sort of rate this enough that touch is really healing. When

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (42:46)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (42:47)

you are able to allow that touch to happen from somebody, and slowly building that connection really energetically, I think there's some, you know, immense gold on the other side of that hour session with you. so

Katherine Froggatt (43:03)

I would love to just ask you one last question. if there is one thing that you wish every woman who is finishing breast cancer treatment would like to understand or you would like to share with her what's going on in her body right now, what would you say to her?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (43:18)

I would say reach out.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (43:22)

to a best friend, I think it's the loneliness and the gap and feeling lonely in the gap at the end of it. So reach out to someone who really gets you, might, you know, someone who truly knows how hold space for you. And it might be a therapist or a body worker, but it can also be your good friend who simply knows how to hold space for you to be seen.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (43:46)

to know that you're not in it by yourself. There's someone there alongside you in whatever shape and form it looks like. Yeah, because I think it's often that loneliness and this disconnect not from self, but also society and being like, who am I in society? And then feeling lonely and isolated in that gap in between. That feels big when I feel into clients. And to have...

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (44:12)

you know if you have more than one person but to have just this one person or truly see the one person where you can say and do whatever you want and you know you're still being loved and you know where you can say today I have a shit day yes I survived this but today is a shit day where you don't

Katherine Froggatt (44:26)

Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (44:28)

hear the answer but at least it's over now or you know all those comments that really not help you just where you are allowed to be who you are with the emotion where you show up on the day

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (44:40)

It might be a day you had time to have a shower and put your face on. It might be the day where you put a hat on and you have gumballs on and just a woolen blanket and all you want is a cup of tea or coffee instead somewhere and talk

Katherine Froggatt (44:51)

Mm.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (44:52)

or not talk. Sitting with someone not talking and just being in the silence can equally powerful. So it's that

Katherine Froggatt (45:00)

This is

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:01)

finding this one or you find your tribe or find at least one person where you can be who you are in whatever state you're showing up on the day.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:09)

without feeling guilty about how you're feeling on the day because you don't need this because it is not as you know, it's not straight. It's there's ups and downs and all of those are important to move through it. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (45:21)

So important.

Katherine Froggatt (45:22)

And and I cannot agree more with you, Alex, because

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:24)

Hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (45:25)

it is so easy for us to isolate ourselves because we're so fear so fearful of being judged, apart from all

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:32)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (45:33)

of the other fears that I'm already navigating from the diagnosis. And there is quite a deep sense of trauma as well, right? From on the body, physically and mentally

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:39)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (45:41)

from a diagnosis. And sometimes we are so afraid to tell people because we are worried about their their reaction that I have to then facilitate.

Katherine Froggatt (45:51)

Some of them cry, some of them

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (45:51)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (45:53)

get really upset, or then some of them become overly positive that tells me all of the great things that I don't need to hear, but all I want was someone to just tell me on the day what I needed to hear without judgment

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:05)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (46:07)

and just holding that moment with me

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:10)

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Froggatt (46:11)

and just allow me to feel validated, feel acknowledged, feel seen and feel heard.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:16)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (46:17)

That I'm not gonna be worried that I will lose her as a friend or I'm not gonna be not performing at my best because I can't show

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:23)

Yes.

Katherine Froggatt (46:24)

up the way I generally like to be. So

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:26)

Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (46:27)

that that is such great advice, Alex. Thank you so much.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (46:31)

You're welcome.

Katherine Froggatt (46:32)

Alex, there are so many amazing points that you've shared today, and I hope that you know this is gonna be really useful for any of our listeners. And I think this is exactly the kind of conversation that is different from what

Katherine Froggatt (46:46)

we generally would like to talk about, but I know this is your realm of expertise and specialization, Alex, and I couldn't think of anybody else that would be so much of an expert to to come in and share all your wisdom today. So thank you so much, Alex. So before we finish, how can our listeners find you?

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (47:05)

Thank you. Yeah, at this point, I have Instagram post shine naturally. And my website is also called shine naturally dot co.nz and set to have a look feel into my energy and what I offer. And people are also always welcome to just message me. You know, as I said, I'm getting better at setting boundaries, but I do love connecting with people. So in my own time, I do get back to people, no matter if it's a message on Instagram or an email.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (47:30)

I generally get back to people and love to connect. And yeah, that would be the way to go. Yeah. Thank you.

Katherine Froggatt (47:38)

And

Katherine Froggatt (47:38)

you do offer support online, not just in person as well, Alex.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (47:43)

I do do online and in-person sessions. And as you said before, I do value the physical touch, but also, yeah, online sessions have been equally powerful. And the beautiful thing about online sessions is you don't have to go out and drive anywhere. You get to integrate that in your PJs on your couch. So there is pros and cons for online and in-person. And I sometimes also offer a little...

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (48:09)

Yeah, actually Kinesiology Masterclass is where we share techniques for pain relief, techniques for getting more energized, more grounded, more connected. So yeah, feel free to sign up to my newsletter and get that into your inbox. I just love working and being with people no matter if it's online or in person. Yeah.

Katherine Froggatt (48:27)

beautiful Alex. Thank you so much. And all of your links will be in our show notes.

Katherine Froggatt (48:32)

And I just wanna say blessings to you,

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (48:33)

Thank you.

Katherine Froggatt (48:35)

Alex. Thank you so very much for today.

Alex Bowles Kinesiology (48:38)

Thank you for having me. Thank you so much.